On the Bus in Greece Dialoguing on Women’s Leadership & the Bible with Dr. Dan Wallace
Early on the morning of March 12, 2020, the United States President broadcast an urgent plea for Americans traveling abroad to return home because of the COVID-19 pandemic. Within hours, our group, the first “Greece: Insider Expedition with Dr. Daniel B. Wallace,” boarded a 24-passenger mini-bus in Kalambaka, Greece, to return to Athens. The previous day we’d walked on air. Well, not literally, but we enjoyed a stunning panoramic view from 1800-feet-in-the-air as we toured two ancient monasteries in Meteora. During our return whisk, I seized the opportunity to interview Dr. Wallace, a complementarian, on the topic of women, leadership, and the church. The esteemed senior research professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary and founder and executive director of the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts (CSNTM) graciously engaged with me as our bus steadily made the 351 km return drive to Athens. Here is part of our lively dialogue.
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“Where do you fall on the spectrum of orthodox views on women?”
DBW: I’m a reluctant complementarian…I am reluctant for two reasons: First, the way men have treated women in complementarian settings is often atrocious. The other side of it is the way men have abdicated their role of leadership and protection and provision in many settings, whether egalitarian or complementarian, which I think is also atrocious.
I believe in the ordination of women. I believe women can baptize and administer communion. You could say, well, you’re inconsistent, “Yes, I am.”
“Do you see a hierarchy of male and female in Genesis 1 and 2?”
DBW: I do. There’s a problem with those who would say, “When we are ‘in Christ, ’ those hierarchies disappear. Egalitarians use Galatians 3:28… “There is no male and female, slave or free in Christ.” But, Paul is not talking about roles; he is talking about salvation.
When you get into Genesis 1 and 2, you have Adam being responsible as the protector, not the provider, at that time, because everything was provided. But to be the head of the home… In the passages where Paul talks about the role of men and women, in all of them, he goes back to Genesis 2. Now he may also go back to Genesis 3, but Genesis 2 has the hierarchy.
“In 1 Corinthians 11:3–16, prophesying men and women were causing dishonor by having/not having something on their heads. How do we apply this today?”
DBW: Paul is saying that it’s a shame for a man to have something on his head, while a woman should have something on her head. He was speaking of a custom that was relevant to that culture. I think because of the culture of the day that women wearing something on their heads was appropriate…Today for a woman to wear something on her head would be really conspicuous. We don’t really have a cultural symbol that is appropriate.
“Are there Bible translation decisions related to women that are problematic?”
DBW: I think the notion of “Why is that we are called man? This is in the Vern Poythress/Wayne Grudem book. The word is adam; it’s not ish. There are different words for “man” [ish] and “woman” [ishah]. They said, “Yes, but adam means ‘man.’” Really it doesn’t; it means “human.” They have gone way too far in those kinds of things. Mark Strauss and D.A. Carson, also complementarians, wrote a book against this Poythress/Grudem book.
The Greek word adelphoi (emphasis on phoi) means “siblings” in the plural. It must include at least one male, but it doesn’t mean “brothers” unless you have a context that is restricted to males. It means “brother and sister” in English, “siblings.” For example, in Acts 1:16, Peter says Andras adelphoi, “men, brothers.” Well, that looks like it’s “brothers,” but there were 120 people, including women. So then, maybe we should translate this, “brothers and sisters.” It’s tricky to figure out; it takes some interpretation…In ancient papyri, there are places where it’s been translated “greet my brothers,” “my adelphoi,” and it mentions women’s names, as well as men’s.
“What are your thoughts on 1 Corinthians 14:34–35?”
DBW: The major issue in 1 Corinthians 14 is whether it’s in the text or not. It’s in every single manuscript we have. It happens to be in two different places: at verses 34, 35, or the end of chapter 14. That’s only found in Western manuscripts, a few in Greek and several in Latin, but it’s always there.
“Do you see mutual submission in Ephesians 5?”
DBW: I see mutual submission in Ephesians 5:21, but not in 5:22. Because that’s in the section 5:22–6:9, which is again subordinate and superior roles, and hupatassó, the Greek word meaning “to submit,” has both of those ideas. What’s interesting is your Greek New Testament, the Nestle-Aland edition puts verse 21 as the beginning of that section, but there are no ancient manuscripts that do that. They started with verse 22. And so, there is a sense in which Paul is picking up on an echo of what was just said. You have five present adverbial participles after “be filled by the Spirit” in 5:18, and this is the last one, “be submissive to one another.”
“While in Greece, we planned to visit Phoebe’s home city, Cenchreae. How would you describe her significance in the Bible?”
DBW: I think Phoebe was a leader in the church of Cenchreae—the official interpreter of Romans to the Roman church—the multiple home churches. Her faith had become known throughout the whole world. That’s what Paul says…She would be reading the letter with certain intonations and emphasis. And you hear it differently when somebody does that. And, Paul trusted her to do that. And then people would ask her, “What did Paul mean by this?” So, she is interpreting the letter.
How do I reconcile that with complementarian people? So, I say, I think there have to be exceptions. And, I think there have to be some ways where we think about this more broadly. Paul is probably talking about in 1 Timothy 2 and 3 as a pattern, but not a rigid style.
“How do you interpret 1 Timothy 2:12, ‘I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.”
DBW: Paul, every time he talks about the role of men and women, grounds it in creation, and he grounds it in Genesis 2. He may also go on to Genesis 3, but Genesis 2 is the basis.
In the church, the men should be the leaders. The original Bible had no chapter divisions, and so, I think the exercising of authority and the teaching are explained further in the next chapter, in 1 Timothy 3. The elders are supposed to be able to teach, and the elders and deacons are exercising authority.
“All translation is interpretation.”
Dr. Wallace and I covered much ground on the topic of women and the Bible. I’m very grateful to him for this opportunity to learn his views. One of the many things about this interview that I’ll always remember is his remark, “All translation is interpretation.” We don’t have the original inspired writings, though we have a wealth of Bible translations, so all translation is interpretation. Therefore, it makes sense to learn about our Bible translations. To discover if the scholars were all men or men and women? Were multiple ethnicities represented? A diversity of perspectives on Bible translation is vital. Why? Scriptural interpretations affect our grandmothers, moms, sisters, daughters, nieces, and “sacred siblings” in the church.[1]
Next week I will post about my interview with Christian egalitarian Marg Mowczko, a prolific writer whose work “explores the biblical theology of egalitarianism.”
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Do you have clarity on what the Scriptures say about women and the church? The Theology of Women online course, which launches in September 2021, is a 7-week deep dive to help you understand the spectrum of biblical beliefs and the foundation to develop your views on women, the church, and leadership. Read more and join the waitlist at cynthiahester.com/course.
[1] “Sacred siblings” is a phrase coined by Dr. Sue Edwards, DTS Professor of Educational Ministries and Leadership, to describe brothers and sisters in the church.